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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx

308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx

05 Dec 2017
@ 01:59 pm (GMT)

Zach Pinzke

So I can’t decide b/w the 208eldm or the 200eldx in my 308 for deer and an upcoming elk hunt. My concern with the eldm is to much meat destruction and lead fragments. O shoot the 130eldm in my 6.5cm and get a lot of meat destruction. I should not that I am running a 16” barrel and my muzzle velocities are as follows.....208eldm=2320 and 200eldx=2400. What would you recommend for deer and soon elk? And will I get to much meat damage from the eldm?

Replies

06 Dec 2017
@ 02:55 pm (GMT)

Lane Salvato

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Zach,

For elk the 200 grain ELD-X is a good bet. You won't get too much meat damage. You need something like this for an elk. They're no joke.

I don't know about meat damage for deer. Depends a lot on what you consider too much I suppose.
07 Dec 2017
@ 02:46 am (GMT)

Zach Pinzke

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
I don’t like lead contaminating the meat. I have been using the amax/eldm and it leaves a lot of fragments and meat damage.
07 Dec 2017
@ 03:48 pm (GMT)

Lane Salvato

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Zach,

One great solution is the lead free ammunition from DRT. Dynamic Research Technologies. If you put the bullet from a 308 into the elk vitals they won't go far. They do shed weight and do a lot of damage, but it's lead free and mostly powdered metal so if you cut out the bloodshot meat you get rid of any metal. Copper and Tungsten I believe.

If you want something that expands but doesn't shed a huge amount of weight you could go with Nosler Partitions or Swift A-Frames. They're lead but don't end up in lots of small pieces.

I don't like homogeneous copper bullets but they're lead free and are available. I'd really advise reading Nathan's cartridge book before you go that route though. Meat saver shots or long range shots can be a problem with these bullets.
08 Dec 2017
@ 03:35 pm (GMT)

Zach Pinzke

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Even with a solid copper bullet i can get ruined meat? I hate to change anything on either one of my rifles, I like the 130eldm in my creed and the 208eldm in my 308. I’m just really confused on what to do. I appreciate the help and advice.
08 Dec 2017
@ 06:20 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Zach.....Im not known for deplomacy but will try to make it simple without offending...try....
you CANT MAKE AN OMLETE WITHOUT BREAKING EGGS
you want a projectile to cause damage as thats what kills critters.....HOWEVER you can limit that damage by either changing your load OR your point of aim.
Im a real stickler for not wasting meat and use a .270 win which has bad reputation for ruining meat.....I call that pure B.S. it just means more goes in the mince bucket and less in steak or casserole pile.
if you shoot animal in the neck you waste stuff all no matter what you hit it with...well a 40mm bofers gun might be problamatic depending on angle....
if you shoot animal broadside on and take out both sets of front wheels (like you should do) you are going to loose some meat of one or both shoulders but lets be realistic here.......its only going to be casserole/mince meat anyway,its not prime steak material.
Ive shot numerous deer in about the worst possible spot to do so (fair up the jacksee) and have lost asmall amount of meat from the steak pile but it only transphered into mince bucket....if your shot exits through back legs/hindquarters it will make a bit of a mess and you will loose a bit more so its all about picking you shot and angle....... forwards of line of leg preferably taking out knuckle and you will drop animal on the spot and loose next to nothing....... if you have a dog with you they will scoff whats stuffed before you have your pack on your shoulders to leave.

as to what load to use....well stop overthinking it and just pick one and use it. really soft like eld/amax will ruin a bit,partition a bit less,stout cup n core a bit less again and a solid copper jobbie will still cut it up and bruise it.
you have balancing act....too soft fast kill but some meat loss
too hard risk pencil wounding slower kill less meat loss
but what do Iknow the last half dozen deer I ve shot have been single shot kills with 7.62x39mm or the .223...... get in close then closer still,put crosshairs in chest and watchem drop.
hope that helps
09 Dec 2017
@ 09:25 am (GMT)

Lane Salvato

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Zach,

I don't know why you're so confused. If you like the loads that you have then you should just stick with them. They are both great. Mike is right, you're going to damage some meat no matter what you do. I agree with Mike again when he says to stop overthinking it. You cut out what is bloodshot, which will be very little and save the rest. Go practice shooting!
09 Dec 2017
@ 02:42 pm (GMT)

Zach Pinzke

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
I have shot lots of deer with the amax/eldm and I typically don’t save front shoulders anyway. I guess I just wanna make sure the 208eldm will be ok for elk. I know the eldx would probably be better but all my load workup and turrets are designed for the 208. Thanks for the help guys
10 Dec 2017
@ 05:53 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Zach......heres some "homework " for you.
I want you to get a hold of a nosler reloading manual and "find out WHY" the Nosler partition was invented/made in the first place.
what was said about it then still holds true today.
17 Dec 2017
@ 07:35 am (GMT)

Zach Pinzke

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Please explain why. I don’t have access to that
17 Dec 2017
@ 10:45 am (GMT)

Jonathan Kitterman

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
You can look up some history on the Nosler website but I believe he is saying to use a bullet appropriate to what you are hunting.
You can also go through the Knowledgebase, cartridge research section on the 308 Winchester. There is also Effective Game Killing. Both links below.

Performance of your current set up may be fine on whitetail deer but fail on elk.



www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.308+Winchester+7.62+NATO.html
19 Dec 2017
@ 07:11 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Zach...because it is directly related to the very question you are asking and pretty much answers it for you.
John Nosler....partition....ask uncle google.
21 Dec 2017
@ 07:25 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
John Nosler was born 4 April 1913 in Brawley, California. Nosler was hunting moose in British Columbia in 1946, when the bullets he was using failed to penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs and kill the animal quickly.[1] At the time, most jacketed bullets employed a single copper alloy envelope (the jacket) around a single lead alloy core. The jacket on most military bullets was closed in front and opened at the base. These full metal jacket bullets offered good penetration, but often failed to expand and passed completely through an animal leaving a comparatively small wound. Soft-point hunting bullets like Nosler was using had the jacket applied in the opposite direction to completely cover the base, but open at the nose. These bullets would expand to leave a large wound channel, but sometimes broke into small pieces with inadequate momentum to overcome resistance of moving through bone or muscle tissue.
The experience inspired Nosler to develop a new bullet design, intended to expand readily at low impact velocities yet maintain integrity at high impact velocities (see terminal ballistics). These Nosler Partition bullets used a specially designed jacket enclosing two separate lead alloy cores.[1] The front core was open on the nose to expand easily, but expansion would stop at the partition (which was a solid layer of copper extending right across the bullet, not just the thin shell of copper which composed the jacket). The portion of the bullet behind the partition has the structural integrity of a full metal jacket bullet, but the expanded forward jacket leaves a larger wound channel. Bullets were originally manufactured for personal use, using hand made, lathe turned jackets. In 1948 Nosler began to sell the partition bullets commercially, forming Nosler, Inc.[2]
Further innovations by Nosler included new techniques of manufacturing bullet jackets that yielded more consistent expansion, better core bonding techniques to prevent separation of the lead core from the copper jacket, and the plastic Ballistic Tip used to provide the streamlined shape of a Spitzer boat tail, with the expansion of a hollow point.[1] The Nosler Ballistic Tip design has been copied by other manufacturers, such as the V-Max bullet by Hornady. John Nosler sold the production facilities to his son in 1988, and died at his home in Bend, Oregon, on 10 October 2010.[1]
21 Dec 2017
@ 07:26 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
there you go..straight from Mr Wiki......
23 Dec 2017
@ 09:12 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Hi Zach, I wanted to leave this one for a bit as I wanted to think it over. Our forum members have made some good points to consider.

You mentioned that your turrets are set for the 208gr. If so, then leave things alone, hunt with the 208gr and see how you get on. You have already gone this far, now it is time to follow through and obtain field results.

It would be nice to have a bit more velocity but this is what it is. The same goes for the turrets, I have never been a fan of quick dials made for the generation of instant gratification. But all of this can be addressed later.

For now, just follow through, finish what you have started. All other factors can be put aside for the time being.

I have listed the range limitations of each of the bullets mentioned within this thread in my cartridges book. read the book, jot down the stepped limits (walls) and put this info to use in the field. My shooting book has other click rules.

All the best for your hunt.
08 Jan 2018
@ 09:12 am (GMT)

James Brower

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
I Have a similar delima. I have 700count 178g ELD-M for my .308 I am carefully fine tuning my scope and reloads for Long Range target shooting local fun competitions and I really don’t want to have to change my scope zero (because I’m a perfectionist on my zero) and experiment trying to design new load recipes just to hunt deer (maybe elk) one time per year...

Nathan & others, have you studied actual evidence of differences in wounding or the copper jacket construction between 30 cal 178g Hornady ELD-X and the 178g ELD-M? (From Hornady graphic advertisement cut aways they look like same bullet without the cannelure) How much difference is there in wounding? Is the latest version 178gELD-M the exact same as the A-Max with just a high temperature tip? How much difference in point of impact at 800 yards between the ELD-M & the ELD-X if everything was the same?
08 Jan 2018
@ 09:31 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Yes I have and no I will not at this stage be sharing detailed info on this site. We give enough away for free as it is. Those who want this detailed info can purchase the current second edition Cartridges book.

But as a general answer to your question. The ELD-X is not the same as the M, it is an evolution of the SST. The M and X are quite different. The M is as you say, the A-MAX with a new tip.

The book has more on long range killing which is vastly more important than trajectories or differences in POI.
15 Jan 2018
@ 03:24 pm (GMT)

Zach Pinzke

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Thank you for your time Nathan! And I have read your book and it’s very informative.
22 Jan 2018
@ 11:57 am (GMT)

James Brower

Re: 308 and 208eldm vs 200eldx
Thank you Very Much for sharing your wisdom earned from decades of hardwork and research on this website for the general hunter. I have learned more from you in 2 weeks than I did in 2 decades of annual Hunting with my friends.
Your general answer has convinced me to use the ELD-X to humanely shoot my game. despite incorrect gossip that my 178g 30 cal ELD-M bullets were the same as 178g 30 cal ELD-X.
AND I will purchase your book now that I know you do describe the different wounding of both types of bullets.
p.s. I noticed the 178g 30 cal ELD-X I just bought after reading your advice, do not have a cannelure or the serrations near the hollow point plastic tip that I thought I saw in previous advertisements for the ELD-X.
I am impressed and thankful for your generosity in teaching us the general public.
 

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