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25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results.

15 Sep 2016
@ 01:50 am (GMT)

Ben Grady

Hi Guys. Thought I would post this, in case any of you are interested in quarter bore 25-06. If you have been following my previous posts I have custom built a P17 Enfield chambered into a 25-06 Rem. It has a very heavy 25" barrel and is suppressed. It shoots really accurately and I reload for it. Weighing in at 11 lbs I decided to buy a Tikka T3 for my general hunting trips and setting the P17 up for long range varminting.

I decided to shoot both rifles through my chronograph to get some accurate data.
My velocities with the P17 seemed a bit high the last time I put it through the chrony, so for a start I shot Federal 117 gr Factory Ammo with a advertised MV of 2990 fps.

Fedaral Factory 117gr Federal Factory 117gr
Tikka: 2982, 2989, 2986 fps P17: 3184, 3163, 3193 fps

Re-loads Book Max using AR 2217 and Federal 215m Primers
No-pressure signs

117gr Pro Hunters 117gr Pro Hunters
Tikka: 3030, 3017, 3008 fps P 17: 3180, 3221, 3200 fps

Re-loads Book Max using AR 2209 and Federal 215m Primers
no-pressure signs

75gr V-max 75 Gr V-max
Tikka: 3715, 3695, 3749 fps P17: 4025, 4033, 4110 fps

These were all identical loads for both rifles.
Book velocity 3700 fps 24" Barrel, 75gr projectile.
Book velocity 3046 fps 24" Barrel, 117gr projectile.

So it looks like the suppressed T3 Tikka shoots bang on book velocities, as well as bang on Factory Velocities.
While the P17 Custom rifle shoots 200-300 fps faster than book and Factory velocities. The P17 is up there with the 257 Weatherby Magnum.

The P17 should make a great Varmint rifle, just need a better scope.
I hope all is safe, no pressure signs that I can see and not over book max.

Let me know what you guys think or suggest.

Replies

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15 Sep 2016 @ 01:55 am (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. 100 lb Boar I shot with the Tikka 25-06 last weekend. Shot just behind the ear at around 125 yards, off hand. Dropped on the spot. The back bone was shattered and no exit wound, so I think the bullet lodged itself inside the skull. Pretty messy with minced bone every where.
15 Sep 2016 @ 03:29 am (GMT)	Quote this Paul Leverman Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Nicely done, Ben. Interesting numbers on both sides, I just wish I knew more to decipher the spreads in ES. Do you crimp your hand loads? This may help to settle it down a bit. Nice boar. Never having hunted or even seen pigs like this, stupid question time: is that their winter coat or is it normally that long? In either case, it will still taste good coming off the barbeque.
15 Sep 2016 @ 04:04 am (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hi Paul No I don't crimp my hand loads and I try real hard to load each round identical. I weigh each load on my manual scales. My ES always seems to be 50 fps difference. Maybe the barrel heating up affects things, as I normally shoot three shot groups, one shot after another without letting the barrel cool down until after each group. Then I take the suppressor off and bolt removed to let the air flow. As for the hairy pig, yeah I guess it is a winter coat. He does seem shaggier than usual. I've never really thought about it before.
16 Sep 2016 @ 01:43 am (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hi Guys Please let me know if you can see any pressure signs. The top row is Federal Factory 117gr, middle row re-loaded 117gr Prohunters and bottom row re-loaded 75 gr V-Max. To my eye the top two look fine and the bottom row is showing signs of a flattened primer around the edge, but not by much. Does this suggest max load for the bottom row and is it still o.k to load to? None of the loads had a sticky bolt lift and all easy to extract. The top ones with blue around the primer are the Factory rounds.
16 Sep 2016 @ 02:17 pm (GMT)	Quote this Helmut Pleiter Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hi Paul. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say that this porker's shagginess is due to a fair few Duroc (a domestic breed of pig) genes being part of his genetic make-up. There are quite a few more or less domestic pigs out in these parts that keep getting out into the woods 'accidentally'. They happily breed with the 'true' wild pig, or 'Captain Cooker' as it is better known here. Hi Ben. I have limited experience with interpreting pressure signs, but I would agree with you that the bottom row is starting to show flattened primers. There might be something else though (not sure about its significance): the firing pin indents appear less than uniform. Maybe someone with more expertise can comment on this. Cheers, Helmut
16 Sep 2016 @ 02:20 pm (GMT)	Quote this Helmut Pleiter Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hi Ben. On looking at the photos again, it appears that the difference happens to be in 3's. So, it's probably due to you shooting two rifles. Sorry.
16 Sep 2016 @ 07:19 pm (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Good spotting Helmut, at the time of shooting I mixed the Tikka and P17 empties together but in a group from each load. I should have separated each rifle as well. So the different firing pins will make different craters. I did the 75 gr loads with Federal FC brass to help differentiate between the two. Load counts etc.
16 Sep 2016 @ 09:57 pm (GMT)	Quote this Bob Mavin Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. The ones with the ring around the firing pin indent are higher pressure, blown back into the firing pin hole. A weak spring can let this happen. Some are a bit flat but I can't see anything to worry about if extraction is easy. I Can't see any scrape mark on the back of the case.
17 Sep 2016 @ 08:51 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. It does look like that bottom row is maxing out. The military rifle may be causing the cratering from having an oversized spring for extra reliability, plus increased pin travel / protrusion. I am more interested in the flattening. Again, the bottom row are definitely near max. You may find that the Federal brass does not allow more than 2-3 reloads at this pressure before the pockets come loose. Summer temps and suppression may cause a severe pressure spike.
17 Sep 2016 @ 09:00 pm (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Thanks Nathan. So do you suggest I back off a little? And by how much? I am using AR 2217. Do I note this load down as max and then play around with lower loads to find the best accuracy?
17 Sep 2016 @ 09:03 pm (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Quote: Thanks Nathan. So do you suggest I back off a little? And by how much? I am using AR 2217. Do I note this load down as max and then play around with lower loads to find the best accuracy? Opps mistake there, for the 75 gr V-max I am using AR2209. AR2217 is for the 117gr Prohunters.
18 Sep 2016 @ 03:24 am (GMT)	Quote this Paul Leverman Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. As they all have said, it looks like it's reaching max. That radius, along with bolt lift, are pretty good indicators of climbing pressures. You still have some radius left, which is good, so maybe try. 0.2gr drops in your reloads. Once you find an accuracy load, your primers will look good again. But yes, that was a good time to stop. Did you feel a noticeable increase in recoil? Sometimes at this point, your first thought is "wow...felt that one". Another good indicator, but not as accurate as the primer/brass.
23 Sep 2016 @ 01:25 am (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. O.K not getting much feed back on the velocities from the P17. Starting to think my chronograph may be reading to fast? But why would the Tikka be bang on? Both shot using exactly the same loads at the same time, Tikka then the P17, 3 shot groups alternated rifles after 3 shots. Federal Factory 117 gr ammo says 2990 fps. From my Tikka 22" with suppressor 2986 fps. Do you think this would be correct? From my P17 Custom 25" barrel with suppressor 3200 fps. Is this possible? Could my P17 custom barrel have tighter barrel tolerances that could increase velocity. Tikka- 75gr vmax 58.5gr AR2209 (book max) 215m primers 3700 fps. Is this correct? P17 - 75gr vmax 58.5gr AR2217 (book max) 215m primers 4056 fps. Is this in any way possible?
23 Sep 2016 @ 08:10 am (GMT)	Quote this Andy Stewart Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hey Ben, Did you not get either of my emails about this?
23 Sep 2016 @ 08:27 am (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hi Andy. Yes I did get your emails and i will try the drop test when i get a chance. Just thought a few more guys might chip in with their thoughts. And wanting to here other peoples velocities with the same projectiles.
23 Sep 2016 @ 08:44 am (GMT)	Quote this Andy Stewart Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hey Ben, Just checking, emails have been problematic the last couple of days, not sure 215's are the right primer, am using 210's and a rather stiff load of IMR7828 and getting 3300 without overt pressure signs (117 Prohunter), if I tried using 215"s I'd get bolt lockup. The light pill in the short barrel maybe, but not in the long barrel with the heavier pill. Just sayin. Andy.
23 Sep 2016 @ 09:36 am (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Thanks Andy, I've had no sticky bolt lift at all. If that is what you mean. All i get is higher than normal velocity. (Or bad readings on my chrony). The 215's seem fine as i have had no issues with them so far? I guess the only way to find out is try a different chrony and do the drop test over different distances.
23 Sep 2016 @ 07:03 pm (GMT)	Quote this Thomas Kitchen Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hi Ben bit of and odd crazy one. i thought it might be tight chamber dimensions but tikka's are normally the same and that would effect pressure to. barrel length would have an effect but wouldn't think that much specially with heavy projectiles. it could just be a fast barrel you could try contacting the barrel maker and seeing if this is the norm. only other thing that springs to mind is freebore have you checked the difference in length to the lands in both rifles?
23 Sep 2016 @ 09:39 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Yes, very hard to say without having the rifle in hand or the chrony. It is highly unusual for factory ammo to go this fast. As you say, drop at distance will confirm. I just hope everything is safe.
10 Oct 2016 @ 10:59 pm (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hi Thomas I did get a comprehensive reply from the barrel maker and he did say tighter tolerances and a uniform twist can make a faster barrel. He is old school and not keen for the reply to be posted on a forum (fair enough).
10 Oct 2016 @ 11:16 pm (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Hey Nathan You mention often that quarter bores and suppressors leave carbon build up and that it is problematic. Can you help me understand why this is so compared to other calibers? How is it any different to say a 6.5 x 55 or a .243 or any other caliber for that matter? How many shots are we talking to get carbon build up issues, I take it you have experienced problems with the 25 06 and is it a caliber you don't really like? Just curious that's all.
11 Oct 2016 @ 12:38 am (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. OK, The .25-06 uses a large amount of slow burning powder. The .243 and 6.5x55 use a medium amount of slightly faster burning powder. The .25-06 rifles tend to heat up fast with modern boot lace barrels. Both the .25 and .270 can end up with heavy carbon fouling at the chamber when docked and suppressed. I have thoroughly enjoyed using the .25-06 over the years. But like most cartridges, it has limitations. The first, is that is performance is not consistent across the velocity spectrum. A lot of guys see its great performance, then try to reach way out long expecting the same, but the results can be very slow kills if all does not go exactly to plan. This was discussed in the cartridges book in detail, why how and what to do about it. A second problem stemming from the first, is that after seeing magnificent results, then a tapering off at range, hand loaders (a younger myself included), then set about hot loading. This can cause a whole range of problems and seasonal temperature issues. A wiser choice is to step into the .257 Weatherby rather than hot loading. Lane will relate that recently, a friend of his put daylight through an animal at an extended range with his .257 WBY, very much the same as would occur in close with the .25-06. Range consistency and penetration consistency could be more easily resolved were heavier bullets available and with 1:9 twists, putting this into the same sphere as the 6.5-06. This would also drastically reduce wind drift, something which the .25-06 suffers from terribly yet cannot afford to. To sum it up and this is only very generally speaking, this cartridge produces excellent performance which in itself can be the cause of problems. We see extremely good results out to 400 yards and think wow, this works well out long. But then we push further and it falls over. We ask too much. The same goes with bullet selection. We find a bullet that creates large 3" through and through wounds, but then push this into a large and tough animal, only to have it run away. Again, we ask too much. We then choose a TSX bullet- this goes straight through game. The Tipped TSX works OK, the former bullets could be very slow killers depending on resistance. Obviously, much depends on how one uses their rifle. Some folk will never see problems. Some reach too far, some choose the wrong bullet, some under load, then we have the over loaders. Game type, preferred shot placement, terrain and hunting methods all effect results. Others may find this to be a cartridge without peer, a cartridge they enjoy for varmints and deer, wow- two rifles in one with X factor. Another problem is the new long range player who firmly believes that a flat trajectory (light and fast) is the key to best performance. Again this neglects such factors as wind drift and retained energy. But this is not a cartridge problem, it is a shooter problem. You would think in todays information agae, this would no longer be an issue, but still I see people loading 130gr bullets in the .308's to make them 'long range shooters'. I wonder if my younger days shooting a bow and then the light and less effective bolt of a crossbow regardless of its higher speed helped drum these basic physics into me. Rifles I have used in .25-06 include Ruger, Winchester, Sako, Tiikka and (Please excuse following swear word...) Browning. There may be others but these are what comes to mind. I agree with late writer Graeme Henry that 26" is great but that 24" can be a bit better and a bit less whippy if building light. The .257 WBY is good because 26" is the norm with a good contour and it can also make the 120gr Partition behave like the 100gr Sierra but with greater penetration. It has been interesting for me to watch the progression of clients into the .25 bore (put a rifle together for them), then later onto the 7mm bore (from mild to magnum). I have followed clients from start to finish over a period of several years in this manner. I am quite happy to use the .25-06, though I do enjoy the .257 WBY these days. In either case and after extensive research, I have realistic expectations so neither let me down.
11 Oct 2016 @ 01:58 am (GMT)	Quote this Lane Salvato Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Ben, The photo below shows a pronghorn that was hit by a 257 Weatherby using a 120 grain Nosler Partition from 315 yards. It was as bad on the inside as the outside. I think that this is why fellows who use the 25 calibers within reasonable distances just swear by them
11 Oct 2016 @ 07:07 pm (GMT)	Quote this Ben Grady Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Yeah I've been getting similar results. I guess the main thing is I am also shooting 300 yard-ish and mostly closer, so the caliber works really well. I am using it at it's optimum. You have to realize every caliber from .17 upwards can be used as a long range cartridge in proportion to its caliber. eg My .22 - 100 yards, my 17hmr is a long range cartridge for caliber size, up 200 yards. My 303-25: 300 yards, My 25 06: 400- 500 yards etc. To me 500 yards is a bloody long way. I have never shot at a target over 400 yards and I have shot one goat at 450 yards from a perfect prone rest on a logging road. I will at some time shoot my 25 06 at longer ranges at targets for fun, but not at game. Every different round has it's capabilities and it's knowing what they are that is important. Well that's my take on it.
11 Oct 2016 @ 08:03 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: 25-06 Tikka vs 25-06 P17 Interesting Results. Thats a good approach Ben The photo above really highlights the emphatic performance of the .257 / Partition. Thanks for sharing Lane.