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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass

100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass

10 Oct 2015
@ 05:51 am (GMT)

Jonathan Hudon

Hi guys, tough question here: I am planning on buying a new stock for my rifle and saw that Manner Composite stock offer the option get the 100% Carbon Fiber Stock (Elite Tactical on their website) for an extra 150$Us.

Manners has been using carbon fiber in their stocks since the beginning, with their standard composite stocks are made with 35% aircraft grade carbon fiber and 65% fiber glass in multiple layers. But their new elite tactical line features a 100% carbon fiber shell. The strength to weight ratio of carbon fiber is off the charts compared to traditional stock materials. Engineers love it because carbon fiber is 5 times as strong as steel, 3 times as stiff, yet 70% lighter.

Aside from being lighter and stronger do you guys think that it could get the rifle more precise? Maybe Carbon finer is too stiff? Has anyone experienced both standard stock and CF stock?

I am not planning to hunt with that rifle but precision shooting only.

Would like to hear you opinion!

Replies

1
10 Oct 2015
@ 10:13 am (GMT)

Ben Law

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
not sure about too stiff, but perhaps too light?
10 Oct 2015
@ 03:17 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Quote:
not sure about too stiff, but perhaps too light?


Manners stocks are all well thought out. I do not think they would be too light in a tactical stock, but being overly light may not be an issue given that things like extra weight, installing a mercury based recoil device, barrel weight and length etc could be used to not only obtain a desired weight but also to establish the desired balance. Accessories too are often overdone on such rifles which add to the issue of too much weight.
[b]
10 Oct 2015
@ 03:41 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Here is a link to Manners stock specs. The far right column I think has the weights. Depending on which stock is selected there is a lot of choice.

http://mannersstocks.com/stock-technical-specifications/
10 Oct 2015
@ 07:46 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Hi Jonathan, what you need to know, is how thick the shell is for when it comes time to dremel and bed the rifle. Also, what is under the shell. There is nothing worse than setting about bedding a nice stock, only to break through the shell in one stroke and hit weak foam. I cannot answer this for you sorry as I am not familiar with this Manners stock. They will be able to anser this though as they appear to have good customer service protocols.

Just out of interest, I have had a start up business contact me over the past few months. I have been donating time, now as a board member. I have no financial interests in this (all time donated) and it all started out when I met the owner, a soldier with a heart of gold, an honest chap, just the sort of guy that makes you feel that there really are good folk in this world. His goal, is to design a stock that meets the criteria in my books including such issues as the thin shell versus weak foam issue mentioned. The guys in this business have taken this to the extremes, bringing in as much science as they can, investing huge amounts of time and energy towards optimal design. Why- because the owner feels it is irresponsible to simply bring another product onto an already busy market- that he does not want to make a product simply to rake in a few dollars. I really hope these guys succeed. They should be up and running with an M700 (and clones) stock within a few months from now if all goes to plan. And they will be exporting. I'll put a blog post up once they get going for anyone interested.

Anyway, my point is, there is more to this that simply what the outer shell is made of. Materials, geometry and recoil characteristics are each a part of the equation. So do take your time during selection.
11 Oct 2015
@ 02:09 am (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Nathan's points are important ones and something that is apparently lacking on their web site.

I did note they provide pillars for bedding the action, and as I prefer to avoid pillar bedding in place of a solid wide column of Devcon Plastic Putty instead, I wondered if this area is solid as they say it is. Have friends that use these stocks but ordered them in and had them fitted and bedded by a gunsmith. They are great stocks and these guys like them but I cannot tell you much more than that. Recommend that you phone them and ask all the pertinent questions.
11 Oct 2015
@ 08:58 pm (GMT)

Jonathan Hudon

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Thank you guys or your answers. I'll for sure take my time before making any move. I know that they have a configurator thing on their website where they ask you your choice of the model, barrel contour (channel), DBM mini chassis or not, the action model, etc etc so to tell you the truth, I thought that at this price, these stocks were already professionally bedded...

Nathan, you just got me really interested tho with that guy and his new stock. (I got myself a Remington 700 sps Varmint.) Do you know is he has any website where I could get some more infos? If not, I'm just gonna wait for you to keep us posted. I'm really curious now, can't wait!!
12 Oct 2015
@ 02:41 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
I emailed Manners to get more info. on theTactical Elite stocks. Here is their reply:

Could you please advise me more about these stocks. I understand the shell layers and all that, but would like to know first if the stocks are completely solid
or do you use a filler material? If so, what is the nature of the fill?

-Yes each stock is a epoxy fill in them.

I note in your descriptions your intent is that these stocks are to be bedded, and you provide pillars for that purpose. Are the pillars contoured to the shape of
the rounded Remington action, or are they installed lower than in direct contact with the action metal while bedding?

-We can install the pillars as a option or send a set of pillars to be used. The pillars are not contoured they a flat.

In the areas that get jostled around like the rear face of the recoil lug, is the area beneath the action solid carbon fiber from the lug mortice all the way back to the rear tang area? If not what is the fill used and the nature of it in this area?

-In the action area of the stock like the pillars and lug we use a controlled fill of epoxy in these areas for strength.

Lastly, please advise if the hand grip of the rear all the way to the butt pad is hollow or filled. I assume the forestock would be rigid enough for bipod use derived from the strength of the shell, but would also like to know if any added epoxy or aluminum reinforcement might be required.

-Yes there is epoxy in the grip to the rear, It depends on whitch stock type it is some have epoxy all the way to the butt of the stock some stop after the grip and get a light weight fill rear back.

Sales
1232 Swift Ave | Kansas City MO 64116
816.283.3334 | [email protected]
www.mannersstocks.com
12 Oct 2015
@ 02:45 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Still one would have to speak to them on the phone for more info on the nature of their controlled epoxy fill etc.as well as the butt stock epoxy fill for the type chosen, as this appeared to be a generic reply.
12 Oct 2015
@ 06:44 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
More inform Manners:

In the action area we use a heavy fill all the way to the shell you will have no problem bedding the stock. On the hunting stocks in the rear it has a light weight foam to save weight but not in the action or barrel area's.



Matt Walker
1232 Swift Ave | Kansas City MO 64116
816.283.3334 | [email protected]
www.mannersstocks.com
12 Oct 2015
@ 09:28 pm (GMT)

Jonathan Hudon

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Wow Bryan, thanks a lot for the new infos! As you can see, I'm still on the road to knowledge and those are questions that I would not have asked. These are indeed appear to be generic reply so for sure I'm might have to call them. Thing is my english when I talk is not the best...oh well when you have to, you have to!

So from what I understand, it is way better when a stock is completely solid than with a filler material like epoxy?

If I go with the DBM, do you think it can change something for the bedding?
13 Oct 2015
@ 03:39 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
When you phone them, be certain to have a list of questions to ask them. Some stocks may need work for fitting the DBM but I don't know about that. Visit their web site and read everything there and see if you can make your question list more precise then phone them.

One of the fellows I know got their chassis and sent his barrelled action to them for complete bedding and etc. He was very pleased with the results. However he lives in the USA and I don't know what, if any, issues there might be for you to do the same thing.
13 Oct 2015
@ 09:25 pm (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
So from what I understand, it is way better when a stock is completely solid than with a filler material like epoxy?


Hi Jonathan,
you will find with these composite style stocks many manufacturers use light weight fill in the non-critical areas such as the butt, pistol grip and parts of the fore stock. Without this the stocks would be extremely heavy. Most of the mainline brand designs have solid material around the receiver and lug areas that will allow for pillar fitment and or bedding with care but as Nathan has said the Carbon Fibre is generally a very thin layer.
The alloy chassis type stocks also use foam fill in these areas with the strengthening shell on the outer, covered with a “grip paint" for want of the correct term.

Bens comment about weight are very valid! Will the small weight saving of C/F be of any help on a precision shooting, non-hunting rifle?
Light weight is the opposite to what l look for in this style rifle as it serves no useful purpose that l have found yet. Very different if you are hunting/carrying into areas then a compromise has to be found, but l still go on the heavy side.
The stock balances the rig out, l don’t want all the weight in the metal work and optics or have to rely on recoil aids to help make it comfortable to use.

Good luck with your decision, Marty
14 Oct 2015
@ 01:41 pm (GMT)

Jonathan Hudon

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Thank you so much guys for your responds, it's a lot more clear now and it will definitely help me with my final decision.

Nathan got me really interested with that new stock tho, so might as well be a little more patient.
18 Oct 2015
@ 12:14 am (GMT)

Brendon Greig

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Hi guys i know the big thing now is to go synthetic these days but im a bit old fashioned and still like the wooden, i made a walnut stock from scratch (pillar bedded with Nathans product) for my Remington model 700 it was my first go and was 400 grams heaver than the synthetic stock it came with, with what i learnt i believe i could make the next one a little bit lighter
25 Oct 2015
@ 03:37 am (GMT)

Clive Judd

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Hi Guys,

My name is Clive Judd, one of the co-founders of Precision Platforms Ltd, a start up company in New Zealand making rifle stocks and accessories that Nathan has just mentioned on this post.

Jonathan in regards to your question - The use of carbon reduces weight, increases tensile strength and increases stiffness (when used correctly) vs other composites. Weight that is saved can be used some where else be it larger geometry, adjustable hardware, optics, barrels etc. Stiffness comes from correct fibre orientation and plane separation and its our understanding it reduces harmonic amplitude thus variations or inconsistencies from external influence's, however we are still in tests with experts who study such (Callaghan Innovation) to quantify its value in the shooting industry.

If there are further questions in regards to stock design and construction and who we are, I will be following this post and am eager to answer.
To give every one a heads up - Its our mission to provide rifle stocks to the worlds shooting community developed with input from subject matter experts and designed with the right balance of stability, mobility and ergonomics for a given pursuit.

We are in the refinement stages of our first stock called the Apex, which has been designed specifically for long range hunting.

You can tune in with us on facebook and any expressions of interests can be sent to [email protected]

Looking forward guys,
Judd.
25 Oct 2015
@ 06:13 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Hi Clive
I'll be interested, so will a lot of others I think. Are you focusing on any particular action make?
Regards
Bob
25 Oct 2015
@ 08:31 am (GMT)

Clive Judd

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Hi Bob,

We are starting with the Rem700 SA/LA (any 700 footprint). As quick as we can we will be following with Tikka t3 and howa, and to follow will depend on what interests we get.
25 Oct 2015
@ 09:23 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Thanks for your reply Clive
I have a 30-06 rem 700 LA looking for a stock, any idea of cost yet? I'm in Australia.
Cheers
Bob
26 Oct 2015
@ 01:16 am (GMT)

Clive Judd

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Hi Bob,

We are running with a price of $1250 NZD for a limited time. Come next year we will be advertising $1500 NZD but from there we are anticipating some number crunching and manufacturing refinement and will endeavor to be competitive.
Apex rifle stock specs as follows:

-Drop at heel is 6mm (minimal drop that produces straight recoiling characteristics)

-Thumb wheel Adjustable cheek piece with cushioned cheek shelf

-Extended forend (80mm longer than mcmA5 @13.5" LOP)
-58mm (2.3inch) wide semi beaver tail forend

-Selectable LOP (when ordering) from 12-15 inch in half inch increments and further adjustable via spacers (we recommend going 1/4inch shorter than normal)

-Weight will be in the range of 2.8 +/- .2 lbs

- Carbon shell, solid action area that requires no pillars.

- An interchangeable grip system to suit different sized hands. Currently offering S/M/L grips.

Prices include shipping to Australian and US distributors with further shipping costs in country. Prices include GST for NZ customers.
We are still in negotiations with distribution channels in order to ensure competitive prices.

Thanks for the inquiry Bob,
Clive.
29 Oct 2015
@ 04:24 am (GMT)

Jonathan Hudon

Re: 100% Carbon finer stock vs Fiber glass
Yes, thank you very much for your reply. I'll be contacting you by email.
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