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> Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 Ruger
Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 Ruger
@ 09:10 pm (GMT) |
Timothy GoodI am following Nathan's instructions in his Accurizing & Maintenance book on a new Tikka T3 Lite .204 Ruger.I thought I would get some guidance on the results. Since the rifle has not been fired, I used a live round with a tape shim on the cartridge head. I cycled the bolt three times and was not sure what to make of the results. Here are closeups of the lugs. 
Based on what Nathan said about Tikka's in general regarding the locking lugs, I guess I expected good contact on both lugs or at least good contact on one. But it looks to me like the contact is marginal on one and almost non-existent on the other. So I guess my question is should I just wait before lapping until I can retest with a fired cartridge? I did try increasing the size of the tape shim on the head but then it would not chamber at all. |
Replies
@ 05:27 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerHi Tim, yes you could wait until you have a fired case. I think you would feel more confident in doing it this way.My advice for this particular rifle, perform you basic break in, then fire a group or two, then call it quits for the day and go home and re-study the lugs. |
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@ 01:54 pm (GMT) |
Timothy GoodRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerThanks, Nathan. I am trying to get a feel for your break-in regime most of which seems perfectly applicable to both longer-range and smaller calibers alike. I am hoping this .204 becomes my little hammer to safely help out farmers in our locale. So off to the range....and a great day for it. |
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@ 03:25 pm (GMT) |
Timothy GoodRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerI finally got to the range and have a fired case. When I tested this time using the case, it seems there is even less contact than in the initial pictures. I can see only the barest of contact on one of the lugs. I was rather surprised by this result so I redid the test a third time with the fired case cycling the bolt three times with the same result.So it appears that this particular rifle does not square with Nathan's observation that Tikka's are usually are very good in this regard. I just want to be sure, therefore, that proceeding by lapping the one lug that appears to be touching is the way to go. (I managed to strip a screw on one of my rifles last week by misapplying some instructions I found on the web, so I am a bit gun shy at the moment when it comes to procedures that are new.) |
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@ 09:28 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerYou got it Timothy, that is correct.Such problems will continue to abound as long as Beretta are shaking the stick at both Sako and Tikka. Sako seem to be be hit hardest by this and rather than "a bad patch", we are seeing more and more problems as time passes. Tikka seem to be going OK for the most part. But as you can see, there are exceptions. Still, for the level of production, results are very good. Well, thats another nail in my "5 reasons why Nathan is not allowed to write gun reviews in glossy magazines" coffin. How sad, too bad. |
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@ 11:31 pm (GMT) |
Timothy GoodRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerThanks, Nathan. I'll get on with the lapping and post results.As for your "Speak truth to power" mentality, it sits well with me and, I'm sure, with a host of others. Gun owners are, and ought to be, a fussy bunch given the nature of the activity. Business will always be a tug-of-war between getting it in the bank and getting it right. Good companies, I think, deeply care about both and keep their ears to the ground. |
@ 12:16 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerJust out of curiosity Timothy did it put down any decent groups with your “standard” test at the range?Has been said on here many times, it's a shame that good companies chase down the road of cost cutting (short cuts) or as some say margin building to compete. I am happy to pay a little more but the hungry gutted importers/wholesalers, ruin it for all! |
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@ 03:36 pm (GMT) |
Timothy GoodRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerMartin. To clarify, all of the testing I refer to is just the marker/lug test.At the range, I only shot one round into the berm (no scope mounted) so that I could test the lugs again with a fire-formed case and lap as required before following Nathan's range break-in procedure. |
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@ 09:37 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerOk, would have been interesting to see a before & after.With my Rem 308 the lug lapping almost halved the group size! l would not have believed this if l had not seen it firsthand after doing full load work up's before and after. The rifle was second hand when l got it, then l re-bedded, re-worked the trigger and light barrel polish, .8moa at best with only one group & averaging 1moa. After checking the lugs they looked similar to yours and after a lengthy lap with no other changes (other than adjusting F/L die) it's always a .5 moa shooter and better when l get it right. All groups in my re-checked ladder tests were also tighter with nodes now showing up in very predictable patterns. And all done referring to Nathans books, same info as you are. This sort of work l would now expect on a Remington after doing a few but not the norm an a Tikka thats for sure! Was using a 204 Ruger VT for the first time on foxes this weekend and found it to be very nice cal to work with. |
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@ 11:14 pm (GMT) |
Timothy GoodRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerFor this gun, there will only be 'an after', but I hope, Martin, that my 'after' approaches what you describe for your 308.I did the lapping this afternoon as well as the rest of the setup for Tikkas that Nathan lays out. All that remains before the break-in session is to mount the scope. I would offer a few observations. 1) The lapping process was not that bad. Lapping itself took about 45 minutes to an hour. Once both lugs were clearly engaging, I switched to the 600 grit and wrapped it up. 2) For me, the clean-up was worse by far than the lapping. I was not fully set up for using generous portions of mineral spirits and it is hard to get past the notion that without a thorough clean-up, lapping grit will be hanging around doing a number on the rifle making the whole exercise futile. 3) After everything was cleaned up and back together, I did the marker test one last time. I discovered that I could have probably lapped a bit longer. While both lugs are clearly engaged at this point--make no mistake, a big improvement--not as much of the 'off' lug is engaging as I had hoped. 4) I wish that Tikka had gotten this right and apparently they did in the past and maybe they usually do even now. (There can always be anomalies, of course.) But if I discovered that this was an ongoing problem with Tikkas, I would probably steer to some other manufacturer even if I had to pay more. If I really wanted a specific Tikka, my preference would be to do a quick marker test, and drop it off at the gunsmiths. I am glad I tackled this and that Nathan focuses on it right out of the gate in the maintenance book. Makes you think about how many folks out there are unhappy with purchases that are only a lap away (yes, pun intended) from being a respectable shooter. In any case, doing is 'getting' and I get it now. But if I get it, certainly manufacturers do too and it would be lovely if they would 'get it' right. |
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@ 12:07 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerSounds like you are on the right track Timothy, will be great to hear of your results!Things change with manufacturers but don't write the Tikkas off just yet, at the moment you have the exception to the rule and demand for these affordable, accurate rifles is at an all-time high, so l guess things slip through now & then. Time will tell soon enough! Howa as an example have gone from very good to average and are now very much on the way back up going by all the talk (including my own findings). I guess at the end of the day these are all mass produced rifles and as such must have build tolerances, of which you have quite easily sorted out. |
@ 01:25 pm (GMT) |
Jarrod KnightRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerHave you guys heard of locking lugs coming out of the factory OK but losing contact after a while?The reason I ask is I have two T3 supervarmints one in 243Win the other 223REM. Both shot 0.5 MOA until recently. The 243 has had approx 500 rounds through it and now will hit a tennis ball most of the time at 100 yards, the 223 is still great. My loading has not changed, I thought for a while I had overtightened the king screws so I bought a Boyds laminate stock for each rifle and some of Nathans bedding kits. With Nathan and Martins help I was very happy with the results, still 243 shooting rubbish and 223 even better than before bedding. After swapping scopes and everything else I could think of I read Nathans book again and decided to check the bolt locking lugs. 223 near perfect contact on both lugs, 243 about 30% contact on one lug (the lug opposite the bolt handle). Unfortunately I don't know if both lugs were contacting when the 243 was going well but I can't imagine a 243 bending lugs after only 500 rounds. Anyway, I lightly lapped it against everyone's cautions about increasing headspace (I figure it is no use the way it is so I have nothing to lose). I lapped it until I got about 50% contact on both and the rifle has definitely improved, I will give it some more now I have seen an improvement but I just can't get my head around the idea that I can't see how the lugs would have bent nor can I understand how the rifle shot so well for about 400 rounds if it came out of the factory like that. I will give it some more lapping and aim for minimum 80% on both lugs then let you know how it goes. I don't think I will get too much problem with headspace, I am not even taking a cigarette paper off it and I can't chamber a round with sticky tape on the head after the first lapping. |
@ 08:58 pm (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 Rugerhi jarrod.did you check lugs when you first got rifle? if not it might of always been that way. if you had checked it the action could of been torqued/aligned differently then now but i would at a guess say its highly unlikely the case. there's a lot of variable at play change of stock scope etc. if its shooting better that's the main thing |
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@ 01:30 am (GMT) |
Jarrod KnightRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerThanks for the reply Thomas,Yes, I wish I had read Nathans book before I started having trouble with it. It would have been great to know what the lugs were like before I developed problems. At least I know the 223 lugs are very good if I ever have any problems with that rifle. When I say the 243 has improved, it still is not good (probably about 2MOA) but seeing a slight improvement has given me encouragement to work the lugs a bit more. I hope it does the trick because I am just about out of options. The local smith has had a look down the bore with a scope both clean and with carbon / copper and reckons it looks good. Apparently if your barrel is bulged it is easier to spot with carbon in the bore because the width of the carbon trail will grow where the bulge is. Anyway he thinks it is all good so I will give the lugs a bit more love and see how it goes. |
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@ 05:46 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerYou may have an issue in your bedding but as I haven't bedded a tikka I can't give you any help. How did it shoot in original stock? I would finish lapping lugs then re visit bedding it might be barrel issue but better to eliminate everything else first. When you saying you haven't changed loads. You didn't develope a load with new brass and now shooting it a second time now? Have you changed anything else? Different batches? |
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@ 10:32 am (GMT) |
Jarrod KnightRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerThe issue developed in the original stock, I thought I may have over tightened the screws and as I wanted to put a laminate on it anyway I bought one for both rifles. after bedding the 223 shot a little better than in plastic stock but 243 showed no noticeable difference (shot just as bad in both stocks). For the moment I have gone back to the plastic stock because it used to shoot great in that. As for the brass, I have tried new, old, neck sized, F/L sized and factory ammo. Also tried different batch of powder and projectiles.I have it out of the stock at the moment to clean out the grinding paste and just noticed the aluminium recoil lug (in plastic stock) is slightly indented at the front and the lug itself comes out of it's recess too easily. This may explain my current issue too, but does not explain why it does not work in the laminate because I bedded a stainless lug in that. After lapping I will put it in the factory stock the 223 came out of, it's recoil lug looks perfect, probably because it is a smaller caliber and has also had much fewer rounds through it. I will let you know how it goes, hopefully get to the range next weekend. Thanks for your continuing assistance Thomas. |
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@ 08:45 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerThis is a tough call because anything could have happened during those 500 rounds. A water droplet or a bit of dust settling in the muzzle can ruin your day.I think you are going about it the right way. The lugs are one aspect but as you say, this should have shown from the get go and if anything, the rifle should have settled more, not less. Still, the job needs to be done. If there is wear in the bore and we combine this with lug lapping, pressures will have dropped a lot. You may have to up your loads to regain lost accuracy from a possible higher pressure sweet spot. Other than that, the best you can do is give the throat a birthday and see how it plays out. If the rifle has been wearing a suppressor, it will pay to do a deep carbon removal and be sure to do all testing without the suppressor as this will be an added variable. On this rifle, a suppressor should be tested as a separate variable afterwards. |
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@ 12:14 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Inspecting Locking Lugs Tikka T3 Lite .204 RugerStaying with Nathans throat Ideas, have you rechecked the seating depth. You may have to chase the lands a little after 500. It may not justify the 2moa unless it's very finiky, I would check it (possible change), then if needed follow Nathans instuctions and recheck after .Many maufacturers head space build tolerances would be more than after giving a light lap to fix contact. You reload so just adjust your F/L die to suit, you wont have any problems there. You should have seen the lap one of my Rem's needed!!! |
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